Baptists and Catholics on Confession and Birthcontrol
tiffers21 asked this question on 7/19/2000:
Roman's Road To Salvation
We are all sinners
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23
Our sin has a penalty
"For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23
Christ paid our penalty
"But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" Romans 5:8
We cannot save ourselves
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us"
"There is none righteous, no not one" Romans 3:10
You must put your faith in Christ alone to save you
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:9,13
I urge you to think about these scriptures. It took me along time to get it. Being a Christian is about reading the Bible, and living the way Christ would want, not following the teachings of a church which does nothing to nourish the soul of its members. I used to be Catholic. Visit a Baptist church and see the difference. The preacher actually teaches you and gives you what you need to know to be a better Christian!!
God Bless All,
mscperu gave this response on 7/19/2000:
Greetings and thank you for the blessings:
I am a Catholic and have read what you posted.
The other answers tell you what a Catholic could answer to your message. I want to add some thoughts.
In the first place I want to ask you to forgive us, the Catholic pastors, for not having given you what you needed. Forgive us our impositions and our bad example. That is why we go to confession regularly so God might help us. I am member of the clergy so in biblical solidarity I am begging you to forgive all hurt and unfilled spiritual need.
The Virgin Mary is the Mother of God! So please respect her, that's just an other word for venerating her. You remember well the distinction.
And please don't tell that the Baptist pastors do not tell you what to do. Because if you don't they will expel you. The Catholic Church does not separate the sinners but calls them to conversion.
Heretics, that is, those who do not teach the doctrine of Christ, put themselves out of bounds, so do those who commit abortion. The Church tells them, if you teach such and do such you step outside the community of faith.
The risen Lord the very first day and as a gift of His resurrection gave the Church the power of the Spirit to forgive sins in His name. Portentous, no? So we use this gift abundantly. The Holy Father goes to confession every week. I try almost to do the same because it helps!
I respect very much your seriousness and your enthusiasm. But the same thing cannot be white and black at the same time. Why are there Anabaptists and Baptists that are moot to you?
Look I am answering in the same way you ask, a bit aggressively so but without rancor, yes? Let us have an open debate. That is what the board is for and you have entered the arena. So be prepared for swordplay! (The sword of the Spirit I hope). Let us take point by point and I will know your faith better at the end and, who knows, I might result a better Christian because of you.
Sorry, I forgot to mention
I posted some days ago on this same board a question about "Dialogue with the Baptist brothers". And I asked if it was possible.
Perhaps you would like to read what the answers say about the possibility to have this dialogue. You can find it on page 3 of the Catholicism board.
tiffers21 asked this follow-up question on 7/20/2000:
Thank you for your answer!! I have to take issue with the statement that I can be expelled from my church. While I have only been there for a little less than two years, my mother in law has been in this church for 20 some years and knows of no one who has been expelled. There are no rules placed on our shoulders by the pastor. The only rules I follow are those written in the Bible. I also take issue with the practice of confession, as the only one we need to confess our sins to is God directly. During the Levitical priesthood the priests heard confessions however they made a burnt offering for their sins first and then a burnt offering for the sins of the people. Jesus however finished the Levitical priesthood because He was the last burnt offering. We do not need anyone else to forgive our sins because Jesus did that by dying on the cross. Once again I thank you for your answer and hope to hear from you again!! God Bless!!
mscperu gave this response on 7/20/2000:
The joy of the risen Lord be in your heart.
I hope, wish and pray that you, your husband, your children and your mother in law are well.
The swords are crossed. Let the dialogue begin.
But in case I’m assailling windmills - you remember the nobleman of the sorrowful semblance - (windmills = adversaries that aren't there) may I bother you with some questions?
Regarding your first observation I would like you to ask yourself your pastor:
What is needed that someone be expelled from this church?
I strongly doubt that he would say: there will be nobody for any possible reason expelled from this church ever.
The next point would be that you please explain about the type of rules placed on the shoulders (by implication) of the Catholics by the Catholic Church so I might argue pertinently. You obliviously are talking about rules not mentioned in the Bible. What rules? I hope you will be patient with me because I really want to know.
Third point would be that you please tell me how you explain John 20
"19 When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and *said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus therefore said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and *said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
How can they forgive or retain without evidence of sin? Has this power been abolished after the last apostle died?
Enough for the moment.
I am awaiting your clarifications and pointers in the right direction.
I remain your faithful servant (I borrowed this from an old book I read. I find they had a quaint way to say things).
In the meantime may God bless you and your family.
PD. Did you look at the question "Positive dialogue with Baptists"? What do you think?
tiffers21 asked this follow-up question on 7/20/2000:
I will definitely ask my pastor about being expelled but I think I can guess what he would say. Someone may be asked to leave the church for illegal activities but never because they do not agree with something the preacher may have said. I read a post where the woman had been excommunicated from the Catholic church because she participated in a birth control program of some sort!!
Now where in the Bible does it say that to be a member of the church, you must be anti-birth control, pro-life or anti-death penalty! I am pro-life and against the death penalty but my husband is for the death penalty and I doubt if he told the pastor this he would be kicked out, and I am on birth control and I don't think they would kick me out for that either!!
Maybe Jesus was telling the apostles to forgive those who harmed them but I do not believe that they nor we nor do the priests nor does my pastor have the power to forgive our sins as Christ does!! Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" Matthew 6:14 & 15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"
mscperu gave this response on 7/22/2000:
Thank your for your kind answer.
So I will be waiting for the reasons that cause be expelled from your Baptist community.
Regarding the nun that has been invited to leave her religious congregation by orders from their General Superior from Rome: It is not a birth control program. Well it is one, but one of the deadly ones.
She is working in a hospital or clinic that does abortions. What do you think about babies half born and than crushed in their head? "Thou shall not kill".
Nobody has been kicked out. The superiors had many talks with her and tried to convince her that a Christian cannot cooperate with an organization that kills babies. She told them that she was right to do what she was doing. So there is a deadly difference of teaching, do you understand? She cannot continue to be a Catholic because she denies a commandment of God and the Church has to defend it.
Regarding abortion: if a Catholic woman has an abortion she is under excommunication. She is not kicked out. She cannot participate in Holy Communion because the broke the communion with Christ killing her child. If she repents she is re-admitted to the Eucharist.
Regarding birth control: the Church teaches that all chemical or mechanical means to impede conceptions are wrong. When we talk about means that are potentially abortive much more so. Because these means avoid the permanence of the conceived diminutive child. It is an abortion. Think about it, millions of women aborting every month and for years! Now they have even a pill to do it.
The chemical methods that are not abortive are dangerous. The pill is a massive assault against the woman's body. The natural methods respect the integrity of the body and require the cooperation of both and not only the question: "Did you take the pill?" The natural methods respect marriage and the partner.
Why does the Church lift her voice against birth control? Because in the intention of the Creator the conjugal act has two aspects, the union and the procreation. Both aspects should be present when the couple makes love. Only on serious reasons should the procreation be excluded for a time but by natural methods.
But being kicked out of the Church, I repeat is an issue only when you do not accept a fundamental tenet of faith. Imagine somebody saying he doesn't believe in the Holy Trinity. He actually defines a new creed, a new religion. So he puts himself outside the Church. The same goes with abortion and similar principles.
Regarding death penalty the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that it is only permitted when this is the only way to defend human life. I think these cases are extremely rare if not inexistent.
So tell me more instances where the Catholic Church imposes obligations that are not the will of God or kicks out her children for misdeeds or differing opinions.
God bless you and your family
PD. This post is long enough so let us talk about Saint John an other time, ok?
If you want more information on natural methods take a look at
tiffers21 rated this answer:
Thanks for your response. I just have to say that I am on birth control for the simple fact that we do not have the money to support another child at this time! And that is really important